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ANGRY CITIZENS OF SHAYCHU.

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ANGRY CITIZENS OF SHAYCHU.

Post by HanoHano on Mon Apr 04, 2011 10:29 pm

Now, I attempted to keep this behind-the-scenes, and out of the general eyes of the members. However that doesn't work, because it will eventually be ultimately ignored by Jack.


Here's a little excerpt from the rant I went on in the Admin Panel.
Spoiler:

Soccerryle wrote:All you guys are doing is killing the dam.n forum. I don't know how Espeon feels, but I know that me and her are the ONLY ADMINS WHO DO ANYTHING. And It's not even sensible that you two... created the site, abandon it, for whatever reasons you may have, BUT REFUSE TO GIVE THE OWNERSHIP UP... BECAUSE YOU'D RATHER WATCH THIS PLACE BURN TO THE FU.CKING GROUND... THAN THRIVE WITHOUT YOU TWO AS ADMINS.



I probably wouldn't be surprised if I get deadmined after this, but it's the truth. Make up your minds.



Now, I know for a fact that I am not the only one who feels like this. Instead of swallowing his pride and giving ownership of the forum to someone who actually works on it ((*cough*espeon*cough*)), Jack would rather sit around of his lazyass, DO NOTHING THAT BENEFITS FOR THE OVERALL GROWTH OF THE FORUM AT ALL ((and by that I mean that god awful theme change earlier)), and watch this place die. I know we can't physically force Jack to give up the ownership, but please, share your opinions.

THIS FORUM SHOULD BE A DEMOCRACY. HEAR THE PEOPLE'S WORD.
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Re: ANGRY CITIZENS OF SHAYCHU.

Post by Dragonartist713 on Mon Apr 04, 2011 10:58 pm

for what its worth, i must say i agree with everything above... and everything in the extended rant on the admin panel.
i also understand how cirrus must have felt when he deadmined himself and left... im not saying i want to give up. far from it. i dont want to see this place die... but one admin can only fight so hard on her own. and even then, without members to keep threads active, everything is for naught... (the latest contest being a prime example)

in short, something has to change. and soon. and by that, i dont mean just the color scheme, jack.

extended espe rant (staff forum)



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Re: ANGRY CITIZENS OF SHAYCHU.

Post by Monkey2 on Mon Apr 04, 2011 11:54 pm

From the sounds of the other announcements, suggestions, members in the past 24 hours, ect that it might be too late for Jack. You guys are always saying that you don't want the site to die...but seem to lack the members at those moments(already dead?).

If you two feel that strongly that it's the ownership, and they won't budge on changing, then maybe it's time to make a new site or combine with a different one(maybe one of the 3 Partners/Affiliates)? If Jack(the Owner?) is the problem and you can't fix it, or get him to, with this site...then just move on without him?

Final point. There are some things the Admins/Mods/Members can work on here that the Owner isn't 100% responsible for. For example...Legendary Zappy Boy is an Elite 4 member, but hasn't been on after Wed Sep 01, 2010 5:46 pm...South's last visit was Sat Jan 29, 2011 10:06 pm. Then for the Gym Leaders, dutybear15's last visit was Sat Jan 22, 2011 11:11 pm...Typhlosion's last visit was Thu Jul 08, 2010 5:18 pm. There are only like 10ish members on in the past 24 hours. So if you can get 12 active people to be the Gym Leaders and Elite 4, then a few(like 5ish?) other active members to help keep the post flowing, and then the site is still dieing...you can blame it on Jack.
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Re: ANGRY CITIZENS OF SHAYCHU.

Post by Dragonartist713 on Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:04 am

Agent Dee wrote:If you two feel that strongly that it's the ownership, and they won't budge on changing, then maybe it's time to make a new site or combine with a different one(maybe one of the 3 Partners/Affiliates)? If Jack(the Owner?) is the problem and you can't fix it, or get him to, with this site...then just move on without him?

i have my own forum already and several members have joined but its difficult to divide attention between developing it and trying to revive shaychu.
thus far, shaychu has gotten more of my time than LoD but im starting to think i should invert that... especially if things continue as they are.

Legendary Zappy Boy is an Elite 4 member, but hasn't been on after Wed Sep 01, 2010 5:46 pm...South's last visit was Sat Jan 29, 2011 10:06 pm. Then for the Gym Leaders, dutybear15's last visit was Sat Jan 22, 2011 11:11 pm...Typhlosion's last visit was Thu Jul 08, 2010 5:18 pm.

the league is dead. this i know, but its a seperate entity from the rest of the forum. honestly, i think it could be deleted and nobody would care since challenges (that are actually carried out) are few and far between.



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Re: ANGRY CITIZENS OF SHAYCHU.

Post by Chrono on Tue Apr 05, 2011 9:37 am

too be frank i dont think getting rid of jack is gonna help sh!* because you guys are still admins being owner wont bring members in, we can all still advertise, we can all come on more, its just lazyness and its easier to blame jack or ash because they are not on and they own the site, than it is to get off your own lazya$$ and do something about the inactivity problem.....


now to bring in my example...

on a differnt forum many know as Ray, the head admin was inactive for a long period of time, and activity was not so high, chris the co-admin who is not owner rallied the renaming members and advertised like heck, and activity is stable, so you dont need to be owner to get activity...

like i said its easier for you to blame jack than it is for you to fix it yourself....just admins being lazy, yea sure jack not being on and helping is stupid but yea lets all just sit hear talking about how fruity jack is for not being on and helping whatta effing duck i wish he was one so we could do something, i wish we could get more member AM I RIGHT, oh if only i was owner i could do something about this inactivty but im not so im going to sit hear badmouthing the owner JACK YOU POO you ruinging the forum, yea as a member i could open yahoo answer and advertise but i rather just go on a rant because i know nothing is going to happen if i do go on a rant so yea....see its easy to rant than actually do something constructive...





first one is nicole second one is smexy awsome shay thanx dude and dudette.
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Re: ANGRY CITIZENS OF SHAYCHU.

Post by seaa-swix on Tue Apr 05, 2011 10:17 am

Wait a minute. I've been on this site actively for the the past 5 weeks, and the only impovements I've ever noticed was because Espe and Soccer put them there. Never have I seen Jack do anything until he pulled the skin switch last night (April 4). And to be frank, I didn't like it. But if you guys think you can do better, I'd like to see you try. Why dont you start coming up with ideas of your own to see if you can come up with more membership, cuz I'm certain these two 'lazy' admins are tired of it by now.


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Re: ANGRY CITIZENS OF SHAYCHU.

Post by 7 on Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:29 pm

WARNING: this isn't a rant

Chrono wrote:too be frank i dont think getting rid of jack is gonna help sh!*
1) When I pay for credits, I don't have to wait for Shay to come on and actually do stuff with it, I can have a more active owner do it for me. (Case in point: it took two days for Shay to get the domain back. Even ASH came on before that.)
2) We can rely more on backups in case something screws up, unlike the case now where it's nearly impossible to get a backup running up in time (theoretically)
3) It doesn't help at all that the two admins that aren't always on happened to be the most active members for a while, as well as the founders. They should at least pretend to care about their site.
4) Forfeiting the ownership position means that the current admins that actually come on can do even more drastic changes. This can be seen as beneficial to every party involved.

Chrono wrote:than it is to get off your own lazya$$ and do something about the inactivity problem.....
In case you haven't noticed, that's what they've tried to do. Consistently. For the last, like, six months...to about a year...
You claim "advertising" is much easier than it looks. Fine. YOU advertise. I'm sure the two current admins have tried to do so, seeing as they've done everything else...

Chrono wrote:on a differnt forum many know as Ray, the head admin was inactive for a long period of time, and activity was not so high, [...] and activity is stable, so you dont need to be owner to get activity...
Every time I'd gone on, activity there was consistently worse than Chim's activity, which is saying a heck of a lot. I don't see how activity is stable there.
Granted, I haven't gone to Ray's forum for about three months, but still.
As an addition, technically this is a rallying cry. Plus, it's not like we're only missing one admin, no, we're missing two. Three, even, if you count Cirrus's self-de-admin.

Chrono wrote:i wish we could get more member AM I RIGHT
Nope! I honestly don't give a damn.
Besides, the rant is on how Shay is a godawful owner of his own forum, not on lack of activity, and also on how the head admins and founders appear to be either not giving a shi.t or giving a sh.it the wrong way.

Chrono wrote:see its easy to rant than actually do something constructive...
Point taken. It's always much easier to rant than do other things. Like how you just ranted rather than do something constructive amirite
I'd so totally help but basically I find this forum to be a nearly-lost cause. It's like Pokerealm except less dumb.

seaa-swix wrote:Why dont you start coming up with ideas of your own to see if you can come up with more membership, cuz I'm certain these two 'lazy' admins are tired of it by now.
...People could actually help with my manga thing! Yeah, we could have an entire club dedicated to my manga thing. Sounds fun, to me...
Pretty much the only ideas I can think of are overthrowing the admins (lol wut) or somehow convincing other members to stay, whether that be from wanting to read the manga or some other source entirely. I'd rather not get new members, I just want the old members to come back.

To parody Soccer's original post:

SOCCER SHOULD SPEND MORE TIME WORKING ON OUR WEBSITE INSTEAD OF RANTING ABOUT USELESS STUFF



i'm gonna reach for the stars
(although they look pretty far)
i've never felt like this
i'll keep on running
cash cash - reach for the stars - sonic colors
i've got it in my sight
the colors feel so right

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Re: ANGRY CITIZENS OF SHAYCHU.

Post by indidoge on Tue Apr 05, 2011 4:07 pm

i don't exactly have a 'rant' since i agree with the original post (but im not as angry..o_o) but i didn't want to go on reading this thread without adding any input of my own because that's what seems to make the forum less active (looking at threads, and not bothering to post anything when you can but you just decided not to...) so... just wanted to say that i'm pretty much just all for appointing some admins as new owners, maybe posting some poll's to see what shaychu thinks on certain things (like, what could help make the forum more active, what would give visitors the incentive to stick around a while) and whoever CAN advertise/ has permission to (depending on where you plan on advertising) should. PERSONALLY, i'm attempting / trying to think of some idea for a little 'shaychu related' animation advertizement that i'd post on youtube.. obviously the mian idea of the ad would have something to do with activity and it'd kinda suck if ppl saw the animation, and came to the forum to find it quite dead. ALSO maybe we should have some kind of externally linked site for.. other things. you know how marriland and serebii have main sites with pooloads of info and then a forum... something like that. OR (ya i have lots of suggestions....) we could.. broaden our horizons? instead of JUST a pokemon based forum, we should filter in some other stuff too (ie animes < BeyBlade seemed popular? and other stuff.)

ya this wasnt a rant. just a junkload of suggestions..


CLICK. THE PUMPKABOO(S).

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Re: ANGRY CITIZENS OF SHAYCHU.

Post by Dragonartist713 on Tue Apr 05, 2011 7:09 pm

DarkHeart wrote:so... just wanted to say that i'm pretty much just all for appointing some admins as new owners, maybe posting some poll's to see what shaychu thinks on certain things (like, what could help make the forum more active, what would give visitors the incentive to stick around a while) and whoever CAN advertise/ has permission to (depending on where you plan on advertising) should.

totally agree on this. advertisement is everyones responsibility, not just the admins. i try to refer people where i can but i cant be the only one doing so. it wont work

DarkHeart wrote:PERSONALLY, i'm attempting / trying to think of some idea for a little 'shaychu related' animation advertizement that i'd post on youtube.. obviously the mian idea of the ad would have something to do with activity and it'd kinda suck if ppl saw the animation, and came to the forum to find it quite dead.

maybe have one pokemon walk up to another pokemon thats seeming down, asks whats wrong, pokemon says their bored/lonely/need help on whatever and the first one suggests they visit shaychu, going on this whole shpeel about why shaychu is the greatest site ever and they should join

DarkHeart wrote:ALSO maybe we should have some kind of externally linked site for.. other things. you know how marriland and serebii have main sites with pooloads of info and then a forum... something like that. OR (ya i have lots of suggestions....)

another pokedex site? thatd be fine (and a lot of work) but wed have to have something that made it our own.

DarkHeart wrote:we could.. broaden our horizons? instead of JUST a pokemon based forum, we should filter in some other stuff too (ie animes < BeyBlade seemed popular? and other stuff.)

anime board added :3 (along with some minor rearrangement)



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Re: ANGRY CITIZENS OF SHAYCHU.

Post by kaekage898 on Tue Apr 05, 2011 7:20 pm

pokedex site? huh? Oh, but I'm pretty creative so maybe I could help come up with ideas. I'm also at your service for being a mod or any help you may want.


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Re: ANGRY CITIZENS OF SHAYCHU.

Post by Ace on Tue Apr 05, 2011 8:03 pm

By pokedex you mean whole new region pokemon? and by new region pokemon you mean region? and by region you mean new npcs? and by npcs you mean the trainers? Because I'm making stuff that's been from mine and jacks compilation and mine and phoenix's compilation and have created two new npcs, almost but is that what you mean? Because I'm a really good trainer spriter, pokemon spriting would be somebody else's area but I am also making vs. sprites and stuff as well.

(Rant on what I've been doing since last week?)




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Re: ANGRY CITIZENS OF SHAYCHU.

Post by 7 on Wed Apr 06, 2011 2:05 am

If we were going to make a Shaychu external site, I'm experienced with that sort of thing (I honestly probably have the most experience out of anyone here), so I can help, although I'd honestly rather not, as we really have nearly nothing to talk about that is unique, and what we do have is incredibly difficult to explain in a second site...

We could make a site-wide "RP" of sorts, where the members don't actually have to participate and it's all planned out by one or two people using personalities from another source (my manga thing or Ace's weird sprite-comic thing) and have the main site be a huge overview and download space for said RP. But I'm going on a stretch...

Regardless, if anyone has any good ideas as to what would go onto the site, either PM me or post in this thread. If you PM me, I'll just forward it to the admins anyway, so no worries on that.



i'm gonna reach for the stars
(although they look pretty far)
i've never felt like this
i'll keep on running
cash cash - reach for the stars - sonic colors
i've got it in my sight
the colors feel so right

Download your own Dropbox, give me more space in mine!
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Re: ANGRY CITIZENS OF SHAYCHU.

Post by Ace on Wed Apr 06, 2011 1:50 pm

(Lol my weird sprite-comic thing?)

If we do actually make a new pokedex site thing (I doubt it) than a new rp might be possible but seriously doubting that since the last time we tried that with the psl it crashed before it had a chance taking off since I left to new york (It sucks over there) and not being here for a month? The project withered away towards the archieves and died so yeah me and 7 could work on a rp with anyone elses help (This would be the third unfinished collaboration of mine)




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Re: ANGRY CITIZENS OF SHAYCHU.

Post by Administrator on Wed Apr 06, 2011 8:38 pm

Justin, you're fired. Ash and I have been busy and haven't had enough time for Shaychu. We're sorry that we cannot get on more often and contribute to our creation, but we simply have not had the time recently. If you really wish for it to flourish, I do not see the problem with others working on it while Ash and I remain admins until we can be active again.

Edit-Some of those things addressed above, are in fact true. I admit to being lazy sometimes, and lately I have not been paying much attention to ShayChu. I wouldn't like to leave my own forum though. I wish I could be more active and helpful but lately I have not had much free time or any effort to do so. Also, thank you Agent Dee and Chrono for standing up for me, or Chrono at least.


Last edited by SKYxShaymin on Wed Apr 06, 2011 8:58 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Re: ANGRY CITIZENS OF SHAYCHU.

Post by kaekage898 on Wed Apr 06, 2011 8:46 pm

SKYxShaymin wrote:Justin, you're fired. Ash and I have been busy and haven't had enough time for Shaychu. We're sorry that we cannot get on more often and contribute to our creation, but we simply have not had the time recently. If you really wished for it to flourished, I do not see the problem with Ash and I remaining admins until we can once again be active.

You probably won't once again be active for months! Give Espe and probably Ace or someone else more capabilities! Ban me idc if you want but it's something called freedom of speech! Shaychu is withering and dying as we speak! If you'd listened to Ace, Espe, and Justin's ideas, Shaychu might actually be somewhere! It would be more active, have more members, and be a more advanced site! But because you're an admin you act like I'll do whatever I want and let the site die!Look at thw Worldbeyblade.org! They appoint new mods and admins! Kai-V-The admin is on for 6 hours everyday! She's only 19 too and manages to run a whole site that has hundreds upon hundreds of members! I've seen many sites die and others flourish, and Shaychu is dying. It's not to late to be revived!


Spoiler:
Name:Vanilite(NN Brice)
gender:Male
Nature:Gentle
Ability:Ice Body
Level:19
Moveset:Iron Defense,Powder Snow, Icy wind, Mirror shot


Trio badge
TM Work Up
Custom Badge Case
(After all calculations) About 6,190 Pokedollars/Shaycoins
7 Potions
7 Pokeballs

Name:Agi
Gender:Female
(He doesn't realize she's shiny yet. 7, approve or disapprove this)
Nature:Docile
Moveset: Water Gun, scratch, lick, leer
Level:16


Panpour
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Re: ANGRY CITIZENS OF SHAYCHU.

Post by 7 on Wed Apr 06, 2011 8:49 pm

kaekage898 wrote:!Look at thw Worldbeyblade.org! They appoint new mods and admins! Kai-V-The admin is on for 6 hours everyday! She's only 19 too and manages to run a whole site that has hundreds upon hundreds of members!
Not only does Beyblade have nothing to do with Pokemon (and the main difference being that there are a substantially smaller amount of Beyblade forums than there are Pokemon forums), Shay's like 15. Ash is also around that age, I think.
A more relevant point would be Pokerealm, the main admin is also 19 and he's dead right now and Pokerealm is still thriving (at least, moreso than it was last year).

This is my last post in this topic because I'm going to shut up like a good person-that-doesn't-care. <3



i'm gonna reach for the stars
(although they look pretty far)
i've never felt like this
i'll keep on running
cash cash - reach for the stars - sonic colors
i've got it in my sight
the colors feel so right

Download your own Dropbox, give me more space in mine!
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Re: ANGRY CITIZENS OF SHAYCHU.

Post by kaekage898 on Wed Apr 06, 2011 8:53 pm

7 wrote:
kaekage898 wrote:!Look at thw Worldbeyblade.org! They appoint new mods and admins! Kai-V-The admin is on for 6 hours everyday! She's only 19 too and manages to run a whole site that has hundreds upon hundreds of members!
Not only does Beyblade have nothing to do with Pokemon (and the main difference being that there are a substantially smaller amount of Beyblade forums than there are Pokemon forums), Shay's like 15. Ash is also around that age, I think.
A more relevant point would be Pokerealm, the main admin is also 19 and he's dead right now and Pokerealm is still thriving (at least, moreso than it was last year).

This is my last post in this topic because I'm going to shut up like a good person-that-doesn't-care. <3

The point remains the same.


Spoiler:
Name:Vanilite(NN Brice)
gender:Male
Nature:Gentle
Ability:Ice Body
Level:19
Moveset:Iron Defense,Powder Snow, Icy wind, Mirror shot


Trio badge
TM Work Up
Custom Badge Case
(After all calculations) About 6,190 Pokedollars/Shaycoins
7 Potions
7 Pokeballs

Name:Agi
Gender:Female
(He doesn't realize she's shiny yet. 7, approve or disapprove this)
Nature:Docile
Moveset: Water Gun, scratch, lick, leer
Level:16


Panpour
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Re: ANGRY CITIZENS OF SHAYCHU.

Post by Administrator on Wed Apr 06, 2011 8:55 pm

kaekage898 wrote:You probably won't once again be active for months! Give Espe and probably Ace or someone else more capabilities! Ban me idc if you want but it's something called freedom of speech!
Don't worry, I wouldn't ban you. lol.
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Re: ANGRY CITIZENS OF SHAYCHU.

Post by HanoHano on Wed Apr 06, 2011 9:03 pm

SKYxShaymin wrote:Justin, you're fired. Ash and I have been busy and haven't had enough time for Shaychu. We're sorry that we cannot get on more often and contribute to our creation, but we simply have not had the time recently. If you really wish for it to flourish, I do not see the problem with others working on it while Ash and I remain admins until we can be active again..

There are quite a few executive decisions only the head admin can create. All I asked is for you to transfer the adminstrator to Lindsay. If anything, I tried to help this f.ucking forum. ME AND LINDSAY HAVE DONE EVERYTHING FOR THE PAST, HOW LONG HAVE YOU BEEN GONE, A YEAR?

Clearly we've done everything we can with the limited powers we had. Either way, I don't give a s.hit.


SINCE I COULD CARE LESS ABOUT THIS BUL.LSHIT WH.OREHOUSE..
JILPPAGI. LoD.


And a big f.uck you to Jack, while I'm at it.


Last edited by Soccerryle on Wed Apr 06, 2011 9:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: ANGRY CITIZENS OF SHAYCHU.

Post by Administrator on Wed Apr 06, 2011 9:04 pm

Soccerryle wrote:
SKYxShaymin wrote:Justin, you're fired. Ash and I have been busy and haven't had enough time for Shaychu. We're sorry that we cannot get on more often and contribute to our creation, but we simply have not had the time recently. If you really wish for it to flourish, I do not see the problem with others working on it while Ash and I remain admins until we can be active again..

There are quite a few executive decisions only the head admin can create. All I asked is for you to transfer the adminstrator to Lindsay. If anything, I tried to help this f.ucking forum. ME AND LINDSAY HAVE DONE EVERYTHING FOR THE PAST, HOW LONG HAVE YOU BEEN GONE, A YEAR?

Clearly we've done everything we can with the limited powers we had. Either way, I don't give a ka-ka.


SINCE I COULD CARE LESS ABOUT THIS bs haunted house.
JILPPAGI. LoD.


[size=16]And a big f.uck you to Jack, while I'm at it.
Your immaturity amazes me.
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Re: ANGRY CITIZENS OF SHAYCHU.

Post by HanoHano on Wed Apr 06, 2011 9:06 pm

Your ignorance amazes me.

Because you'd rather watch this place burn and die than swallow your own godda.mn pride.
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Re: ANGRY CITIZENS OF SHAYCHU.

Post by Administrator on Wed Apr 06, 2011 9:09 pm

I may consider giving ownership to someone else, but I won't make any promises. I just would not like to let go of my forum. If others wanted it to keep the site going, they could have kept up the work if they wanted to. I may be back, I may not. Once again, I sincerely apologize.
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Re: ANGRY CITIZENS OF SHAYCHU.

Post by Chrono on Thu Apr 07, 2011 2:36 am

instead of attacking jack, i know we tried this but serioussly justin and espeon cant get activity back themselves its impossible for 2 people unless they just dedicate their whole day to advertising and seriously its not fun and boring. its all our faults that shaychu is in the way it is, not just jack, not just ash's fault, its mine, darkhearts, 7, aces, everyones, we could have all just helped justin and espeon when they were trying to do something and all of this could have been avoided, but since we are all to buisy or just cant be asked shaychu is becomeing a shytt whole.

jack why dont you come on a abit more yea, even if its just for like a minuite, i know you got like exams or something i do aswell and yea i should be focusing more on that then shaychu, but oh well, im on holiday i can have a little break.

so im sorry shaychu i let you down....

lol does anyone else think this is kinda parading the problem in Libya? LOL no just me alright...





first one is nicole second one is smexy awsome shay thanx dude and dudette.
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Re: ANGRY CITIZENS OF SHAYCHU.

Post by Monkey2 on Thu Apr 07, 2011 6:59 pm

How about instead of attacking each other, firing Admins, ect. how about we ALL work to make the site better. If there are "immature" and "inactive" people like Soccer and Jack as Admins...why don't we have a site vote for who deserves to be the owner, let whomever brings the most members or does the best for the site get promoted to the Admins and Moderator spots, and then from there can the new membership and the best staff for the site, we can rebuild the Elite 4 and Gym Leaders that don't seem to be working as is, after that, get the coordinatiors going(whatever they do).
Maybe call it the '5th Gen Shaychu Redo' or something. Start over and make this site better.
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Re: ANGRY CITIZENS OF SHAYCHU.

Post by HanoHano on Thu Apr 07, 2011 8:35 pm

SKYxShaymin wrote:I may consider giving ownership to someone else, but I won't make any promises.

Then why did you let this whole problem escalate to this degree in the first place?

Chrono wrote:i know we tried this but serioussly justin and espeon cant get activity back themselves its impossible for 2 people unless they just dedicate their whole day to advertising and seriously its not fun and boring.

Thank you Chrono, the same thing me and Lindsay have been trying to say. /we can't do everything./ And there are various decisions that ONLY the owner can make. Therefore, it is either essential for Jack to be more active, or transfer ownership. That's a decision that has to be made if this forum is going to thrive. You can't have a free owner spot, and just co-owners who can't make major decisions.

Agent Dee wrote:why don't we have a site vote for who deserves to be the owner

Tried before, Jack ultimately denies any attempt we make at a reformation. Again as I have said, this forum should be a democracy.
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Re: ANGRY CITIZENS OF SHAYCHU.

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